tannin and red wine aging

[winemaker81]

I have potential proof that more tannin is a good thing for aging red wines.

Fall 2020 I made Merlot, Zinfandel, and a Bordeaux Blend (equal parts Cabernet Sauvignon, Cabernet Franc, Malbec, and Petit Verdot), where the Merlot and Zinfandel were barrel aged in neutral barrels with oak cubes. From this I made 2 blends:

Meritage - 66.7% Merlot, 33.3% Bordeaux Blend, all free run
Meritage Plus - 40% Merlot, 40% Zinfandel, 20% Bordeaux Blend

In addition to the main blends, I bottled 1 US gallon each of the constituent wines and the Meritage and Meritage Plus -- all glass aged with no oak adjuncts. The plan was to taste all the wines annually.

The main batches are doing fine, but I recently opened bottles of the reserved wines. BIG disappointment. The Merlot, Zinfandel, and Meritage Plus were drinkable, but clearly declining, and the Meritage and Bordeaux Blend were not. I had a bottle of each left after that, but dumped them.

I'll usually drink my lesser quality wines, but these were not worth it.

Given that the main batches were aged with oak (more tannin) and the reserved wines were not, I'm leaning towards the oak tannin being the differentiator. There could be issues with bulk storage, but I'm leaning towards that being a lesser factor.

Does anyone have comparable or conflicting stories?

 

[VinesnBines]

Barrels with oak cubes really smoothed out the harshness of my 23 reds. Possibly a renewed MLF but since I kept them topped up and Kmeta every month, MLF seems unlikely.

 

[distancerunner]

Tannin bind with anthocyanin. This process doesn’t stop during the life of the wine. We use sacrificial tannin during fermentation to preserve the tannin from the skins. If the wine is not destined for a barrel cellaring tannins are used for the same reason. When tannin binds to anthocyanin two things happen. The first is “softening” of the tannin. Actually, there is less tannin in the wine so some bitter notes are reduced. The second thing is that the resulting product (phenolic?) helps to preserve color.

 

[Rice_Guy]

Does anyone have comparable or conflicting stories?

In 2020 learning how to blend crabapple tannin I put together a bouchet with 10% crab and 90% mixed apple juice. At bottling the astringent notes were dominant enough that I back sweetened to 1.020 for balance. Since then the percentage of crab has been lowered and the required back sweetening has been lowered.

The 2020 bouchet is cleaner tasting than products since 2020 where I lowered the percentage of crabapple.

 

[wood1954]

Tannins are also anti oxidants and anti microbial so contribute to aging.

 

[Jezroti]

Either a low ph or higher tannins will help preserve your wine. But not both together, the tannins will be too harsh. Also, keeping up on so2.

 

[Snafflebit]

I love a wine that ages well, and I associate that quality with the tannic Bordeaux wines that have the puckery drying tannin quality. My grapes are always so ripe that I have never been able to achieve that style in my wine. I watched a movie where the French winemaker describes California wine as "Hawaiian Punch" (and he wasn't wrong!)

I am beginning to think that I will never achieve a wine that will age well over 10 years, my bottles will need to be consumed in 5 years. My experiments with finishing tannins are extending the drinkability age 2-3 years IMO, but are mostly adding flavors and less "drying" quality. Good? Bad? I dunno.

 

[anthocyanin]

I am beginning to think that I will never achieve a wine that will age well over 10 years, my bottles will need to be consumed in 5 years. My experiments with finishing tannins are extending the drinkability age 2-3 years IMO, but are mostly adding flavors and less "drying" quality. Good? Bad? I dunno.

You're in CA? I bet you can find a vineyard that will let you come in and harvest grapes a bit "early" when they still have some green tannins, if you want to make a more Bordeaux-style red. Maybe from a cooler microclimate as well so they can have longer flavor development time while still maintaining some "greenness" at harvest.

 

[Snafflebit]

You're in CA? I bet you can find a vineyard that will let you come in and harvest grapes a bit "early" when they still have some green tannins, if you want to make a more Bordeaux-style red. Maybe from a cooler microclimate as well so they can have longer flavor development time while still maintaining some "greenness" at harvest.

Maybe, but duplicating the Bordeaux physiological ripeness will not happen by harvesting grapes earlier, the hang time also matters. I think some of the problem I experience is simply how hot it can get at times and less marine effect we get at night, compared to Napa or Sonoma. Definitely my goals are to pick earlier and also I am experimenting with Zinfandel in my area.

 

[winemaker81]

I am beginning to think that I will never achieve a wine that will age well over 10 years, my bottles will need to be consumed in 5 years.

Consider how few wines are capable of lasting more than 5 years. Our (home winemakers) situation is actually normal.

If you produce a wine you are happy with, regardless of age -- it's a win. Stop worrying about stuff that doesn't matter.

BTW -- I'm loving you 2024 fermentation posts.

 

[wood1954]

Have you tried adding a lot of sacrificial tannin during fermentation? That’s what I do with my Marquette, it seems to help bind and remove protein to make the cellaring tannin last longer and have more of an impact.

 

[Snafflebit]

.

 

[Rice_Guy]

tannic Bordeaux wines that have the puckery drying tannin quality. My grapes are always so ripe that I have never been able to achieve that style in my wine.

Have you investigated the Scott Labs tannin kit? , , ,

Using what is available locally I have constructed a big red out of mulberry juice (no tannin but lots of polyphenol pigment) andding excessive grape tannin out of the bottle. It has made it to five years growing less harsh flavor notes. , , ,
My oldest home wine has been Mom’s 30 year old black raspberry (no tannin but lots of polyphenol pigment). Black raspberry goes through a transition, ,,, at two years it starts getting astringent which clears out by five years.

My bet is that you can use existing crop and build what you want.

 

[Snafflebit]

Have you investigated the Scott Labs tannin kit? , , ,

It looks like a very well designed, comprehensive kit. I have used ScottTan FT Rouge, Estate and Riche. I mostly recall the grippy tannins in the Estate. Worth a revisit

 

[Rice_Guy]

Have you tried adding a lot of sacrificial tannin during fermentation? That’s what I do with my Marquette, it seems to help bind and remove protein to make the cellaring tannin last longer and have more of an impact.

What protocol?
As things evolve the science committee in the vinters club has started offering grape skins. A demonstration is envisioned which would be 1) a control steep on the hybrid’s natural skins, 2) press immediately after crushing and steep on California vinifera skins, 3) press immediately after crushing and rebuild the tannins with commercial tannins.
@Snafflebit any rates that looked interesting?

 

[winemanden]

Substitute in Wine Polyphenols Prevent Oxidation​

Tannin from Chestnut Flowers could replace sulfur as a preservative in wine. The method was discovered in Portugal and patented in 2017.

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By Wein‑Plus GmbH
2 min. read
View original

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Tannins from male chestnut flowers could replace sulfur as a preservative for wine. The product "Chestwine", developed in Portugal, is said to be non-allergenic compared to sulfites and has no impact on the color and taste of the wine, according to the manufacturer "Tree Flowers Solutions". It is just as effective as SO2 in inhibiting oxidation and microbial growth. "The tannins of the chestnut tree react with free and dissolved oxygen, thus preventing the formation of aldehydes," explains Philippe Ortega, one of the founders of the company. The product meets the requirements of the Oenological Code of the International Organization of Vine and Wine (OIV) as well as the standards of organic viticulture. Ortega took over the patent registered in 2017 by researchers from the University of Bragança and the Polytechnic Institute in northeastern Portugal. At that time, he advised several wineries in the Vinho Verde region and successfully tested the polyphenols from chestnut flowers.
According to the manufacturer, "Chestwine" should be added during the maceration process, before malolactic fermentation, during aging, and just before bottling. "Depending on the color, health condition of the grapes, and general hygiene in the winery, 27 to 45 grams per hectoliter are needed. With this amount, the wines remain stable for at least 60 months, which corresponds to the duration of our longest trials," says Ortega. The project has won several innovation awards.

 

[ChuckD]

Substitute in Wine Polyphenols Prevent Oxidation​

Tannin from Chestnut Flowers could replace sulfur as a preservative in wine. The method was discovered in Portugal and patented in 2017.

---

By Wein‑Plus GmbH
2 min. read
View original

---

Tannins from male chestnut flowers could replace sulfur as a preservative for wine. The product "Chestwine", developed in Portugal, is said to be non-allergenic compared to sulfites and has no impact on the color and taste of the wine, according to the manufacturer "Tree Flowers Solutions". It is just as effective as SO2 in inhibiting oxidation and microbial growth. "The tannins of the chestnut tree react with free and dissolved oxygen, thus preventing the formation of aldehydes," explains Philippe Ortega, one of the founders of the company. The product meets the requirements of the Oenological Code of the International Organization of Vine and Wine (OIV) as well as the standards of organic viticulture. Ortega took over the patent registered in 2017 by researchers from the University of Bragança and the Polytechnic Institute in northeastern Portugal. At that time, he advised several wineries in the Vinho Verde region and successfully tested the polyphenols from chestnut flowers.
According to the manufacturer, "Chestwine" should be added during the maceration process, before malolactic fermentation, during aging, and just before bottling. "Depending on the color, health condition of the grapes, and general hygiene in the winery, 27 to 45 grams per hectoliter are needed. With this amount, the wines remain stable for at least 60 months, which corresponds to the duration of our longest trials," says Ortega. The project has won several innovation awards.

Interesting. Is the product commercially available yet? Any experience with it here?

 

[winemanden]

Interesting. Is the product commercially available yet? Any experience with it here?

I've no idea. It just came in my emails yesterday. I just put it on the forum so that anyone interested could read it.

 

[KaptKanga]

Substitute in Wine Polyphenols Prevent Oxidation​

Tannin from Chestnut Flowers could replace sulfur as a preservative in wine. The method was discovered in Portugal and patented in 2017.

---

By Wein‑Plus GmbH
2 min. read
View original

---

Tannins from male chestnut flowers could replace sulfur as a preservative for wine. The product "Chestwine", developed in Portugal, is said to be non-allergenic compared to sulfites and has no impact on the color and taste of the wine, according to the manufacturer "Tree Flowers Solutions". It is just as effective as SO2 in inhibiting oxidation and microbial growth. "The tannins of the chestnut tree react with free and dissolved oxygen, thus preventing the formation of aldehydes," explains Philippe Ortega, one of the founders of the company. The product meets the requirements of the Oenological Code of the International Organization of Vine and Wine (OIV) as well as the standards of organic viticulture. Ortega took over the patent registered in 2017 by researchers from the University of Bragança and the Polytechnic Institute in northeastern Portugal. At that time, he advised several wineries in the Vinho Verde region and successfully tested the polyphenols from chestnut flowers.
According to the manufacturer, "Chestwine" should be added during the maceration process, before malolactic fermentation, during aging, and just before bottling. "Depending on the color, health condition of the grapes, and general hygiene in the winery, 27 to 45 grams per hectoliter are needed. With this amount, the wines remain stable for at least 60 months, which corresponds to the duration of our longest trials," says Ortega. The project has won several innovation awards.

What about using a super strong black tea to add tanin? I brew the tea, lots of it, in 1 liter of water for at least 30min and then reduce the volume by half through simmering and use that.

 

[Rice_Guy]

Interesting. Is the product commercially available yet? Any experience with it here?

I like the flavor of chestnut tannin, astringent not bitter. Chestnut wood extract is available from my local ingredient store. I haven’t seen an extract from chestnut flowers.

Black tea also produces astringent flavors. My favorite astringent is crab apple and a few apple varieties. Tannin is a common plant constituent since it helps resist insect predation.