Wild Grape Wine Questions

[SeniorHobby]

I've been making Wild Grape wines since 2007. Most of the time I've mixed them with Concords, but in a number of times I've blended them with Cranberry or Tomato. The 2007 batch was made to be a Port and was fortified with Brandy. The Port was made with 8.7 Lbs per gallon, and I haven't tasted it yet! In 2019, I made a one gallon batch with 10 pounds of grapes via Carbonic Maceration. I then made a three gallon second run with those grapes. The CM batch was close to terrible. I bottled 2 bottles of the CM batch to taste in 10 years and blended both batches. The blended batch was pretty good. I then blended the Wild Grape with 2 gallons of Tomato and that turned out.

I will stick to only using about 2 - 3 pounds of Wild Grapes per gallon and blending with a 2nd run of Cranberry.

Hello Vinobeau,
This might be taboo, but is it out of line to used frozen cranberry concentrate to mix with the fermented wild grape wine post ferment to help with the foxy smell / improve taste?

 

[ChuckD]

Sorry to hijack but we got into the quick fement/fast drink discussion.

No problem. Digression points are a bonus! And you gave me a new recipe to try.

besides, If I were to complain about hi jacking a post I expect the heavens would open up and strike me dead.

 

[VinesnBines]

And you gave me a new recipe to try.

I've tried limeade but the lemonade is still my favorite. We drank 5 gallons in a hurry last summer. I'm thinking of starting a new batch when my IPA keg kicks. Actually it a toss up between another IPA and the lemonade. Of course I could do both and just bottle the lemonade. Choices!

 

[winemaker81]

This might be taboo, but is it out of line to used frozen cranberry concentrate to mix with the fermented wild grape wine post ferment to help with the foxy smell / improve taste?

Nothing is taboo -- you can do anything you want! [Granted, some ideas are not good ideas ...]

One of the recommended tips for backsweetening is to use frozen concentrate to reduce the amount the wine is diluted. Check that you like the flavor of the concentrate first, and bench test with a small amount of wine & concentrate to ensure it is going to work out to your satisfaction.

@VinesnBines' idea of using carbonated water is a good one. You could also use a sparkling wine, such as Prosecco.

To carbonate beer I use 1/2 to 3/4 cup sugar in 5 gallons, typically 2/3 cup. You can also purchase carbonation drops -- the ones I'm familiar with use 1 drop for 12 oz liquid, so a 750 ml champagne bottle uses 2.

Important: Use only bottles that are designed to handle pressure! Beer and champagne bottles are best, and you need a bottle capper. Do not use screwcap bottles, as you can produce a grenade.

For dry wines, it is easy -- just prime and cap. But to maintain sweetness? To pasteurize a bottle in the midst of carbonation, you need to raise the temperature to 140 F to kill the yeast. However, I have NO idea how you'd figure out the remaining sugar is at a good point. Open a bottle to test it? You could end up opening a lot of bottles before you get it right. Or is there an answer here I'm missing?

If you use a non-fermentable sweetener, bench test first to ensure you like the flavor. If that doesn't work, some type of kegging system is probably the best choice.

 

[VinesnBines]

However, I have NO idea how you'd figure out the remaining sugar is at a good point. Open a bottle to test it? You could end up opening a lot of bottles before you get it right. Or is there an answer here I'm missing?

The posts I have read (not tested) is to fill a plastic water bottle or soft drink (pop) bottle with your "brew". Every couple days squeeze the bottle and when it seems firm, you have reached the proper level of carbonation. Most likely a couple weeks.

I've struggled with carbonation in bottles. Early in brewing, I did pretty fair with bottle carbonation. Lately not so well. I think I have gotten lazy.

 

[Vinobeau]

Hello Vinobeau,
This might be taboo, but is it out of line to used frozen cranberry concentrate to mix with the fermented wild grape wine post ferment to help with the foxy smell / improve taste?

It wouldn't bother me. I think its a good idea as long as you add Sorbate before. Depending on how I made the last batch of Cranberry, I will make a second run and use them for different blending. I may add some to a foxy grape wine or even blend them with the original Cranberry that might be too strong tasting. Sometimes, although not too often, the second run turns out drinkable by itself. I've blended second runs of Cranberry & Elderberry, also. Frozen Concord concentrate would work, also.

 

[SeniorHobby]

It wouldn't bother me. I think its a good idea as long as you add Sorbate before. Depending on how I made the last batch of Cranberry, I will make a second run and use them for different blending. I may add some to a foxy grape wine or even blend them with the original Cranberry that might be too strong tasting. Sometimes, although not too often, the second run turns out drinkable by itself. I've blended second runs of Cranberry & Elderberry, also. Frozen Concord concentrate would work, also.

Thanks, I think I will try that. I checked in one local store and they only carry cranberry juice mixed with apple and apple is the lead ingredient on the list. Would you mix it like you would normally drink it and then add to the wine? At what concentration? I'm told that wild grape wine is acidic and also cranberry is acidic, just curious, how do they go together to make a better tasting wine, you would think that it would turn out even more astringent?

 

[Vinobeau]

Thanks, I think I will try that. I checked in one local store and they only carry cranberry juice mixed with apple and apple is the lead ingredient on the list. Would you mix it like you would normally drink it and then add to the wine? At what concentration? I'm told that wild grape wine is acidic and also cranberry is acidic, just curious, how do they go together to make a better tasting wine, you would think that it would turn out even more astringent?

I would simply add the can of concentrate with out any water, that will give you a better concentration of the flavor. I don't believe that the Wild Grape wine improves the flavor of the Cranberry, but visa versa. I solve any excess astringency by back sweetening.

 

[SeniorHobby]

I would simply add the can of concentrate with out any water, that will give you a better concentration of the flavor. I don't believe that the Wild Grape wine improves the flavor of the Cranberry, but visa versa. I solve any excess astringency by back sweetening.

I talked to Rice Guy and he said I could always add the juice after bottling. I'm not sure if I don't have a good wine already as I just threw the grapes, sugar and yeast together, didn't worry about pH or TA. This wine was started last fall, sitting in a carboy to this day. Had it in my laundry room, it gets light, vibration from the washer. Who knows? It has a strong flavor, but not sure if its the foxy flavor or oxidation.

 

[winemaker81]

didn't worry about pH or TA

In 40 years of winemaking, I have not worried about either. I use pH test strips to determine if I'm in a good range, and use my taste buds to make adjustments. Typically my taste buds will tell me what I need to know.

I don't have a problem with testing. If it helps folks, cool.

I'm not sure if I don't have a good wine already

Do you like the taste? If so, don't mess with it. Trust yourself.

 

[Vinobeau]

I talked to Rice Guy and he said I could always add the juice after bottling. I'm not sure if I don't have a good wine already as I just threw the grapes, sugar and yeast together, didn't worry about pH or TA. This wine was started last fall, sitting in a carboy to this day. Had it in my laundry room, it gets light, vibration from the washer. Who knows? It has a strong flavor, but not sure if its the foxy flavor or oxidation.

Absolutly, its your call.

 

[SeniorHobby]

In 40 years of winemaking, I have not worried about either. I use pH test strips to determine if I'm in a good range, and use my taste buds to make adjustments. Typically my taste buds will tell me what I need to know.

I don't have a problem with testing. If it helps folks, cool.


Do you like the taste? If so, don't mess with it. Trust yourself.

It is strong tasting, I have added sugar to a glass and it is tolerable. Do you think it is wise to bottle without being balanced? Probably need to add a meta to prevent explosions / spoilage?

 

[winemaker81]

It is strong tasting, I have added sugar to a glass and it is tolerable. Do you think it is wise to bottle without being balanced? Probably need to add a meta to prevent explosions / spoilage?

I would not bottle until I was happy with the wine. While you can adjust the wine, bottle-by-bottle as you use it, it's more efficient to fix the carboy.

Keep in mind this wine is young. Leave it in the carboy, as it can use more aging, and this gives you time to determine what you want to do. Don't be in a rush.

Another flavoring option is cherry concentrate. It has a fairly strong flavor and won't jack up the acid.

If you backsweeten, you must add sorbate + K-meta, else you will produce mini-volcanoes.

 

[VinesnBines]

In 40 years of winemaking, I have not worried about either. I use pH test strips to determine if I'm in a good range, and use my taste buds to make adjustments. Typically my taste buds will tell me what I need to know.

I didn't test TA with a couple batches recently. The PH of the pumpkin was 3.47 and the PH of the elderberry/Chelois was 2.90. About 3/4 way through primary, the pumpkin was super tart and the Elder/grape was less so. They both evened out at the end of primary but I'm sure the TA was the culprit. We'll see what takes place.

I would not bottle until I was happy with the wine. While you can adjust the wine, bottle-by-bottle as you use it, it's more efficient to fix the carboy.

Really good advice. Though sometimes I have to bottle because I'm never real happy (banana, coffee). In those instances others have been happy with the wine. I decided I just didn't like either one.

Now to figure out what to do with that fig batch that seems to have a bad case of VA. I may have a nice cooking vinegar, I hate I wasted the figs.

 

[SeniorHobby]

I've been making Wild Grape wines since 2007. Most of the time I've mixed them with Concords, but in a number of times I've blended them with Cranberry or Tomato. The 2007 batch was made to be a Port and was fortified with Brandy. The Port was made with 8.7 Lbs per gallon, and I haven't tasted it yet! In 2019, I made a one gallon batch with 10 pounds of grapes via Carbonic Maceration. I then made a three gallon second run with those grapes. The CM batch was close to terrible. I bottled 2 bottles of the CM batch to taste in 10 years and blended both batches. The blended batch was pretty good. I then blended the Wild Grape with 2 gallons of Tomato and that turned out.

I will stick to only using about 2 - 3 pounds of Wild Grapes per gallon and blending with a 2nd run of Cranberry.

Hello Vinobeau,
Fellow wild grape member here. I was reading your post about the Carbonic Maceration. That sounds very interesting. I looked up what it meant and was curious how you ferment with CO2 by itself. I did read that some have done it in a plastic bag with dry ice. Without being a professional winery, I was wondering what home winemakers do to make this happen? in the above posts it sounds like there are a few methods to ferment the wild grapes.
Thanks,
Senior Hobby

 

[SeniorHobby]

This is ready to drink as soon as fermentation is complete. Usually about 2 weeks after “brewing”.
Hard Lemonade
12 cans frozen lemonade concentrate
1 pound extra light dry malt extract (beer supply store)
7 teaspoons yeast nutrient
3 pounds corn sugar
2 packages of EC1118 or Nottingham yeast
Potassium Sorbate
Cane sugar
Rehydrate yeast with 1cup of warm water, 1 tablespoon of lemonade concentrate and a bit of yeast nutrient. Let rehydrate for 30 minutes.
For the wort mix the dry malt extract and corn sugar with 2 gallons of boiling water. After sugar is dissolved, remove from heat and add the rest of the yeast nutrient. Add 10 cans of the lemonade concentrate and cold water to make 5 gallons. Once cool, pitch the yeast. I ferment in a car boy with airlock. This is more beer than wine.
I let it ferment until it clears then I back-sweeten. After I rack to a bottling bucket, I add a mix of 4 cups of cane sugar, 2 cans lemonade concentrate, 3 cups of water and 3 1/2 teaspoons of potassium sorbate. You can use up to 8 cups of sugar but I find that too sweet. This is ready to drink on bottling day. I keg mine and don’t bother with the sorbate. You can make a million alternatives. I added a concentrate of hibiscus tea to my last batch. That was marvelous!

I don’t want to start a war over Skeeter Pee and Dragon Blood. I’m just offering an alternative.

Hello VinesnBines,
I started a batch of the Mike's Hard Lemonade today! I'm wondering about the bottling though. I don't have a bottling bucket. Just wondering if this needs to be bottled or can I leave it in a carboy? Do we need to worry about head space and CO2 spoilage. If I bottle, the calcium carbonate should take care of any secondary ferment, right? I taste tested the mix before I put it in the carboy and I like it already!
Thanks,
Senior Hobby

 

[SeniorHobby]

I like my hard ciders sweetened and carbonated. I am aware of three ways to achieve that:

1. stabilze and sweeten, then carbonate in a keg
2. sweeten without stabilization, then pasteurize when the carbonation level is right
3. use a non-fermentable sweetener and bottle carbonate

I use #3 because I don't have a keg and it seems simplest to me. Before bottling, I sweeten with erythritol (Swerve brand) and add the appropriate amount of sugar for carbonation. This is "bottle carbonation" because the fermentation after bottling provides the CO2 for carbonation. You need to add the right amount of sugar, because if you add too much you will end up with "bottle bombs."

Hi Raptor99,
I just started my Mike's Hard Lemonade today. Reading your above #3 method still has me a little concerned. How do I know how much sugar is the right amount? Also the statement bottle carbonate, how do you exactly do that?
Is it out of the question to leave it in a carboy?
Thanks,
Senior Hobby

 

[Raptor99]

Hi Raptor99,
I just started my Mike's Hard Lemonade today. Reading your above #3 method still has me a little concerned. How do I know how much sugar is the right amount? Also the statement bottle carbonate, how do you exactly do that?
Is it out of the question to leave it in a carboy?
Thanks,
Senior Hobby

You can leave it in the carboy and drink it fairly quickly, or put it in the fridge and not bottle it at all. In that case it won't be carbonated. You should only bottle carbonate in bottles that are designed to withstand the pressure of carbonation (beer or champaign bottles). If you want to carbonate it you need to use one of the methods in the post you quoted above.

The method I use is this:
1. Make sure that the fermentation is completely finished. This is important so that you don't create "bottle bombs."
2. Rack the cider or lemonade into a sanitized carboy or bucket with enough free room for stirring
2. Add the right amount of non-fermentable sweetener and priming sugar (see below), and mix thoroughly. I usually dissolve the sugar first in a small amount of boiling water so that it is easier to mix in. I let it cool before adding it to my cider.
3. Bottle in beer bottles with crown caps.
4. Wait 2-3 weeks for the renewed fermentation to carbonate the contents of the bottles. If the room is cold then it might take longer.

As for the amounts:

1) Sweetener (I use Swerve brand erythritol): Do bench testing by adding some sweetener a little bit at a time to a small sample. When the sweetness is about right, calculate how much to add to your entire batch.

2) Priming sugar: You can use an online calculator to determine how much to add. Here is one: Beer Priming Sugar Calculator | Brewer's Friend. By experimentation I have determined that 2.5 Tbls. per gallon is about right for my preferred amount of carbonation.

If fermentation is not finished, or you add too much priming sugar, your bottles may leak or explode. The first few times it is good to open a bottle after about 2 weeks. If it gushes out like a fountain you should put the rest of the bottles in the fridge until you consume them to avoid explosions.

 

[SeniorHobby]

You can leave it in the carboy and drink it fairly quickly, or put it in the fridge and not bottle it at all. In that case it won't be carbonated. You should only bottle carbonate in bottles that are designed to withstand the pressure of carbonation (beer or champaign bottles). If you want to carbonate it you need to use one of the methods in the post you quoted above.

The method I use is this:
1. Make sure that the fermentation is completely finished. This is important so that you don't create "bottle bombs."
2. Rack the cider or lemonade into a sanitized carboy or bucket with enough free room for stirring
2. Add the right amount of non-fermentable sweetener and priming sugar (see below), and mix thoroughly. I usually dissolve the sugar first in a small amount of boiling water so that it is easier to mix in. I let it cool before adding it to my cider.
3. Bottle in beer bottles with crown caps.
4. Wait 2-3 weeks for the renewed fermentation to carbonate the contents of the bottles. If the room is cold then it might take longer.

As for the amounts:

1) Sweetener (I use Swerve brand erythritol): Do bench testing by adding some sweetener a little bit at a time to a small sample. When the sweetness is about right, calculate how much to add to your entire batch.

2) Priming sugar: You can use an online calculator to determine how much to add. Here is one: Beer Priming Sugar Calculator | Brewer's Friend. By experimentation I have determined that 2.5 Tbls. per gallon is about right for my preferred amount of carbonation.

If fermentation is not finished, or you add too much priming sugar, your bottles may leak or explode. The first few times it is good to open a bottle after about 2 weeks. If it gushes out like a fountain you should put the rest of the bottles in the fridge until you consume them to avoid explosions.

Thanks Raptor99!
It sounds like an interesting project. I do have a few champaign bottles and a few beer bottles to try it with. I will have to get the correct sugar and crown caps. Good to know with trying it after two weeks! I will do a small batch and see how it goes before jumping in too deep. I would imagine that I need a special tool to do the capping?

 

[Raptor99]

This is the capping tool I use: https://www.amazon.com/Ferrari-LDC-4016-Bottle-Capper/dp/B001D6KGTK/

Champaign bottles take a different type of cork and a different tool than wine bottles. Some but not all champaign bottles will take the same crown caps as beer bottles.