Disappointed!

[Musissa]

My husband ordered 160lbs of fresh Cab Sauvignon grapes from this company https://www.baywinebrokers.com/, he paid for 2 Days Air shipping because we wanted our grapes to be in a great condition. We waited since the middle of September till the grapes reached the proper brix (24). Today the UPS truck brought us 3 buckets of "frozen" must, 6 gallons each. My husband called them and had a long conversation. No apologies, just long explanations why they sent must instead of fresh grapes. So, it wasn't a mistake, they did this without calling my husband and asking him whether he wants must instead of fresh grapes. After picking our Isabella, Eastern Concord and Cab Sauvignon yesterday and today, destemming, crushing and starting Isabella/Concord wine, we had a pleasantly lazy evening. But it wasn't what we were waiting for. We crashed our Cab Sauvignon along with thawed Frontenac and Cab Franc from our micro wine yard and mixed everything with the must. We got more must and will make more wine. Also, we got 3 buckets that are very useful. But we ordered fresh grapes and didn't receive them. Not a good experience at all.

 

[Musissa]

We placed our order on 09/10 and received the wrong thing on 10/16. My husband called them once and asked about the order and was told that they are waiting for grapes to ripen (brix should be 24 by their standards). Then on Monday my husband got an email with the UPS Ground (instead of 2 Day Air) trucking number. The must came cold, not frozen (we are ordering raw food for our GSD from CA, and it comes frozen every time). At least my husband is very happy with his 3 new 6-gallons buckets and with the fermenting must smell in our house . I am attaching pictures of what we found in our "frozen" must (plenty!), a congratulatory message and how our own berries look after my husband destemmed them (Frontenac and Cab Sauvignon). I am still very . Hoping to prune our old vines properly and have much better harvest next year.

 

[anthocyanin]

Honestly, I would look into doing a chargeback on your credit card if Bay Wine Brokers won't refund you your order (or at least partially). You were not sent what you ordered, and instead were sent a cheaper product. That's a valid reason IMO. I'm sure the frozen must will still turn out tasty but yeah I would be upset too.

 

[winemaker81]

Yes, contact your CC company, send your original receipt to show it's not what you ordered.

 

[WineHombre]

I just ordered 200lb of Petite Syrah from them. I am waiitng on my order as the Petite Syrah are suppsed to be harvested on Monday.
Stems in must is normal when you use a crusher/destemmer to crush your grapes. I get them in my must all the time when I use a crusher/destemmer. They are actually good to have in the must and will add Tannins as well as other flavor compounds to the wine.

You didn't recieve a cheaper product but instead got a more expensive product. They normally charge $.50 a pound extra for Crushing snd Destemming (I paid this for mine) and $.25 a pound extra to freeze them. I'm in Southern California so they should get to me 1 day after shipping via UPS ground so I didn't pay for them to freeze them..
Did you check the brix and PH? Did the grapes look good in the must?

I will post about my order when I get them.

 

[mainshipfred]

We placed our order on 09/10 and received the wrong thing on 10/16. My husband called them once and asked about the order and was told that they are waiting for grapes to ripen (brix should be 24 by their standards). Then on Monday my husband got an email with the UPS Ground (instead of 2 Day Air) trucking number. The must came cold, not frozen (we are ordering raw food for our GSD from CA, and it comes frozen every time). At least my husband is very happy with his 3 new 6-gallons buckets and with the fermenting must smell in our house . I am attaching pictures of what we found in our "frozen" must (plenty!), a congratulatory message and how our own berries look after my husband destemmed them (Frontenac and Cab Sauvignon). I am still very . Hoping to prune our old vines properly and have much better harvest next year.
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Just a silly question, did the 3 buckets weigh160 lbs?

 

[Musissa]

I just ordered 200lb of Petite Syrah from them. I am waiitng on my order as the Petite Syrah are suppsed to be harvested on Monday.
Stems in must is normal when you use a crusher/destemmer to crush your grapes. I get them in my must all the time when I use a crusher/destemmer. They are actually good to have in the must and will add Tannins as well as other flavor compounds to the wine.

You didn't recieve a cheaper product but instead got a more expensive product. They normally charge $.50 a pound extra for Crushing snd Destemming (I paid this for mine) and $.25 a pound extra to freeze them. I'm in Southern California so they should get to me 1 day after shipping via UPS ground so I didn't pay for them to freeze them..
Did you check the brix and PH? Did the grapes look good in the must?

I will post about my order when I get them.

Hope your order arrives on time and everything is as expected. Please share your experience with us!

Berries looked normal to my untrained eyes; brix was 24 as promised. Didn't check PH right away. I licked my hands, the juice was very sweet, and I didn't notice any tartness, but my tongue and palate are untrained too. I called my husband, and he said that PH is 3.6 this morning but he is not very happy with the thing that measures it. He doesn't trust this number. If I am not mistaken, they also offer frozen must and I don't want it to be from the fall 2023 harvest that they didn't sell. Also, we harvested, destemmed and crushed our own Eastern Concord and Isabella (about 40lb of grapes total) the day before we received the must. And we got more juice than skins. My husband is afraid that we received more skins, stems and twigs than juice. He is upset and I was the one who found this company. I trusted them because one lady on this forum who does everything right in my opinion (at least her small vineyard with young vines looks perfectly cared for to my untrained eyes) bought frozen must from some company in Livermore, CA. I did my research and found only one company in Livermore that sells must and fresh grapes.

 

[Musissa]

Just a silly question, did the 3 buckets weigh160 lbs?

We were in so much disbelief as well as in shock, so we didn't even weigh them. Adventures started when the UPS truck driver wasn't able to find our shipment for 15 minutes. He asked us how the package supposed to look like. And we told him there should be something big with 160lbs of fresh grapes in it. When the UPS man finally discovered the boxes and with my husband's help brought them to our garage, I knew that something was very wrong. Very heavy but not big enough for their weight.

 

[WineHombre]

Just a silly question, did the 3 buckets weigh160

Hope your order arrives on time and everything is as expected. Please share your experience with us!

Berries looked normal to my untrained eyes; brix was 24 as promised. Didn't check PH right away. I licked my hands, the juice was very sweet, and I didn't notice any tartness, but my tongue and palate are untrained too. I called my husband, and he said that PH is 3.6 this morning but he is not very happy with the thing that measures it. He doesn't trust this number. If I am not mistaken, they also offer frozen must and I don't want it to be from the fall 2023 harvest that they didn't sell. Also, we harvested, destemmed and crushed our own Eastern Concord and Isabella (about 40lb of grapes total) the day before we received the must. And we got more juice than skins. My husband is afraid that we received more skins, stems and twigs than juice. He is upset and I was the one who found this company. I trusted them because one lady on this forum who does everything right in my opinion (at least her small vineyard with young vines looks perfectly cared for to my untrained eyes) bought frozen must from some company in Livermore, CA. I did my research and found only one company in Livermore that sells must and fresh grapes.

They do run another site that sells frozen must buckets from the previous years harvests. I believe its Grapesforwine.com. and its around $120+ a bucket to buy the frozen must. There is about 60lbs of grapes to fill a.6 gallon bucket in my experince.

Stems in must is normal and happens when you use a crusher/destemmer. Even if you were to get them whole. They would be on the stems and thats included in the weight.

Additionally after you crush grapes to make must your skins only make up about 20% of the must. When put 20 gallons of grape must (grapes I crushed myself) into a fermenter I can onky expect to get a yeild of about 13 gallons. Only 7 gallons of the 4 buckets worth is skins. These are grapes I crushed myself. So the fact that you have more liquid than skins is correct. You should.
Its reallly easy to assume the worst .it seems to me they crushed your 2024 grapes for you to make it easier to ship and to ensure your graoes got to you in good shape rather than moldy. Did you call them and ask them about what you got?

 

[bstnh1]

I would never accept and pay for a product I didn't order. When vendors get away with this shady stuff, it just encourages more of the same. I would absolutely do a chargeback on my credit card. If you order fresh grapes, you're supposed to receive fresh grapes, not crushed grapes, not must, not frozen must.

 

[WineHombre]

Hope your order arrives on time and everything is as expected. Please share your experience with us!

Berries looked normal to my untrained eyes; brix was 24 as promised. Didn't check PH right away. I licked my hands, the juice was very sweet, and I didn't notice any tartness, but my tongue and palate are untrained too. I called my husband, and he said that PH is 3.6 this morning but he is not very happy with the thing that measures it. He doesn't trust this number. If I am not mistaken, they also offer frozen must and I don't want it to be from the fall 2023 harvest that they didn't sell. Also, we harvested, destemmed and crushed our own Eastern Concord and Isabella (about 40lb of grapes total) the day before we received the must. And we got more juice than skins. My husband is afraid that we received more skins, stems and twigs than juice. He is upset and I was the one who found this company. I trusted them because one lady on this forum who does everything right in my opinion (at least her small vineyard with young vines looks perfectly cared for to my untrained eyes) bought frozen must from some company in Livermore, CA. I did my research and found only one company in Livermore that sells must and fresh grapes.

Oh and winegrapesdirect.com also ships grapes from the livermore area as frozen must buckets. Checking out their pricing .

 

[Musissa]

They do run another site that sells frozen must buckets from the previous years harvests. I believe its Grapesforwine.com. and its around $120+ a bucket to buy the frozen must. There is about 60lbs of grapes to fill a.6 gallon bucket in my experince.

Stems in must is normal and happens when you use a crusher/destemmer. Even if you were to get them whole. They would be on the stems and thats included in the weight.

Additionally after you crush grapes to make must your skins only make up about 20% of the must. When put 20 gallons of grape must (grapes I crushed myself) into a fermenter I can onky expect to get a yeild of about 13 gallons. Only 7 gallons of the 4 buckets worth is skins. These are grapes I crushed myself. So the fact that you have more liquid than skins is correct. You should.
Its reallly easy to assume the worst .it seems to me they crushed your 2024 grapes for you to make it easier to ship and to ensure your graoes got to you in good shape rather than moldy. Did you call them and ask them about what you got?

Thank you for all the information! Yes, my husband called right away and asked why they sent us must instead of fresh grapes. We thought they made a mistake. But it wasn't any mistake, they decided to send us must without prior call and receiving authorization. And there is less juice than skins/seeds/twigs/stems combined. We have more liquid than skins in the must made from our own labruscae (Concord and Isabella in one primary fermenter). We were so upset and didn't think clearly. Crushed our own Cab Sauvignon, Cab Frank and Frontenac and added the mix to the must we received from CA. The man from the company had a long conversation with my husband and it was clear they didn't send the must by mistake. My husband didn't demand any refund since there was no other choice. Have to crush our own grapes, mix everything and start primary fermentation.

 

[Musissa]

I would never accept and pay for a product I didn't order. When vendors get away with this shady stuff, it just encourages more of the same. I would absolutely do a chargeback on my credit card. If you order fresh grapes, you're supposed to receive fresh grapes, not crushed grapes, not must, not frozen must.

You are right of course, thank you!

 

[WineHombre]

Thank you for all the information! Yes, my husband called right away and asked why they sent us must instead of fresh grapes. We thought they made a mistake. But it wasn't any mistake, they decided to send us must without prior call and receiving authorization. And there is less juice than skins/seeds/twigs/stems combined. We have more liquid than skins in the must made from our own labruscae (Concord and Isabella in one primary fermenter). We were so upset and didn't think clearly. Crushed our own Cab Sauvignon, Cab Frank and Frontenac and added the mix to the must we received from CA. The man from the company had a long conversation with my husband and it was clear they didn't send the must by mistake. My husband didn't demand any refund since there was no other choice. Have to crush our own grapes, mix everything and start primary fermentation.

He didnt give you a reason why they crushed the grapes and sent them in buckets instead? I expect mine to come in buckets because I don't want to crush 200lbs of petite Syrah and paid for crushing. Since these grapes are smaller than others I have done I expect there to be lots of grapes. Hope it makes great wine for you.

 

[Musissa]

He didnt give you a reason why they crushed the grapes and sent them in buckets instead? I expect mine to come in buckets because I don't want to crush 200lbs of petite Syrah and paid for crushing. Since these grapes are smaller than others I have done I expect there to be lots of grapes. Hope it makes great wine for you.

He gave my husband many reasons why they sent us must instead of grapes without calling prior and getting approval. That's what my husband remembers from the long conversation. He was very tired after destemming our own grapes all by himself and wanted just to end unproductive dialogue and start working with what we had on hand.

House smells good, we are hoping for yummy wines for us. Thank you!

 

[Jusatele]

I do buy frozen must online. I get it because I can not find a local place to buy grapes from of that type. I am lucky that I live in Oregon and can buy locally sourced grapes of many types. I understand many places in the USA do not have that option so they must buy from sources that may switch out product. I have invested in a destemmer and a crusher because I can get grapes but I realize up here you can just rent them.
I did make wine from Kits that were just juice and stuff for years as that was all I could source. Then came on the frozen must suppliers and I was happy to get it that way as I felt I had stepped up and was doing it more like a vineyard. Now moving up to where I can just source grapes I get tickled every time I make wine from grapes. I even have 6 grape vines so I can make some that I have grown.
So I really feel bad for you as we try to make as much like what we fantasize. Something like what happened to you is basically destroying the dream and that is upsetting.
Are there any clubs or brew stores around you that source grapes? Are there enough hobbiest to support a bulk buy? Many small vineyards order grapes to blend, have you contacted any of them?
Just a few thoughts
I bought a large amount through the local brew store this year. My amount was just the tip of the order because he has built up that business over a decade.

 

[Musissa]

I do buy frozen must online. I get it because I can not find a local place to buy grapes from of that type. I am lucky that I live in Oregon and can buy locally sourced grapes of many types. I understand many places in the USA do not have that option so they must buy from sources that may switch out product. I have invested in a destemmer and a crusher because I can get grapes but I realize up here you can just rent them.
I did make wine from Kits that were just juice and stuff for years as that was all I could source. Then came on the frozen must suppliers and I was happy to get it that way as I felt I had stepped up and was doing it more like a vineyard. Now moving up to where I can just source grapes I get tickled every time I make wine from grapes. I even have 6 grape vines so I can make some that I have grown.
So I really feel bad for you as we try to make as much like what we fantasize. Something like what happened to you is basically destroying the dream and that is upsetting.
Are there any clubs or brew stores around you that source grapes? Are there enough hobbiest to support a bulk buy? Many small vineyards order grapes to blend, have you contacted any of them?
Just a few thoughts
I bought a large amount through the local brew store this year. My amount was just the tip of the order because he has built up that business over a decade.

Thank you for great ideas and suggestions! We have several people here on the forum who live not far from Salt Lake City. And I have just checked, there is a club in Park City. I should do more research. It is interesting, when we buy wine in our local state store, we see that most people are buying vodka, whiskey, gin. Something with high ABV.

 

[Musissa]

We got our own 8+lbs of Frontenac, 1+lbs of Cab Franc and 10+lbs of Cab Sauvignon of destemmed grapes, pure berries only. We also received 18 gallons of must from CA. After the primary fermentation has ended there are 11.5 gallons of wine-to-be. My husband thinks there should be more liquid. 5-gal carboy on the left has free run liquid, others have pressed one.

 

[Ohio Bob]

We got our own 8+lbs of Frontenac, 1+lbs of Cab Franc and 10+lbs of Cab Sauvignon of destemmed grapes, pure berries only. We also received 18 gallons of must from CA. After the primary fermentation has ended there are 11.5 gallons of wine-to-be. My husband thinks there should be more liquid. 5-gal carboy on the left has free run liquid, others have pressed one.

My opinion is you have left too much headspace in those carboys. Better practice is to leave no more than an inch, less is better if you can do that. I leave so little headspace that when I rack i inevitably spill wine onto the bench. In the end, a minor inconvenience.

 

[Musissa]

My opinion is you have left too much headspace in those carboys. Better practice is to leave no more than an inch, less is better if you can do that. I leave so little headspace that when I rack i inevitably spill wine onto the bench. In the end, a minor inconvenience.

Thank you, I will let my husband know your opinion and ask why he had left this much headspace.