Active fermentation is the most likely culprit. How long did you chill it?
Roasted Almond Wine.. It's your goy's fault!
- Thread starter vinny
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Ok… it has begun…
4 cups of chopped and toasted pecans, simmered in a gallon of water
Juice from a tangerine
Rind and juice of a lemon
12 oz raisins chopped and into the pecans as they are cooling
Sugar to SG of 1.090, then recheck after 24 hrs, because, raisins (target 1.100)
Pectic enzyme
pH to 3.8 using citric acid (target 3.4)
kmeta for 1-2 gallons
24 hours later…
SG is 1.110
pH is 3.8 (added acid to get to 3.4)
4 cups of chopped and toasted pecans, simmered in a gallon of water
Juice from a tangerine
Rind and juice of a lemon
12 oz raisins chopped and into the pecans as they are cooling
Sugar to SG of 1.090, then recheck after 24 hrs, because, raisins (target 1.100)
Pectic enzyme
pH to 3.8 using citric acid (target 3.4)
kmeta for 1-2 gallons
24 hours later…
SG is 1.110
pH is 3.8 (added acid to get to 3.4)
A xmas miracle?
Keep us updated on the flavor. I like my almond, I am going to try for Hazelnut next. I can't see myself finding any nuts locally, so I am thinking it will be a nut butter wine. 'Cause, why the hell not?
Very interested in this!
Nut wine recipes I've seen call for a cup of nuts which I'm thinking may be as funny as using 3-4 lbs fruit for gallon wine. Plan to start my hazelnut in the next day or two and 2 cups will be the minimum.
I pitched RC212 this afternoon, and it seems to be taking off already. I made a starter, and slowly added a bit of the must to it every 15-20 mins or so to get the yeast accustomed, then added the mixture to the must once they were both the same temperature. So far it smells like a pecan pie...
This morning it’s actively fermenting… and it smells very rich of the roasted pecans, raisins, and a light lemon. I added nutrients and will check back later on. I’m trying the cellar science versions of GoFerm, Fermaid O and K.
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This one is a slow ferment... today we're down to 1.100. Temp has been about 68F but it is going, a cap forms, and after a stir some of the CO2 escapes. It has a dark, thick, sweet syrupy smell to it is the best way I can describe it. It tastes wonderful, aside from being pretty sweet at the moment. Slight molasses in a pecan pie maybe, with a very light citrus finish that is very complementary. In a future trial, provided all continues to go well, I might use some dates in place of the raisins.
I'm curious about the oil component from the pecans and have been asking myself questions and trying to make observations:
I tried testing pH again but the meter wouldn't calibrate so I need to get a new probe. I'm sure it's lasted longer than expected. It does read pH in different settings so I don't think it's unable to read a pH, it just gives me a warning when I try to calibrate.
I'm curious about the oil component from the pecans and have been asking myself questions and trying to make observations:
- Do I keep it on top or mix it in?
- Will it inhibit any oxygenation?
- Is there some flavor in there and will it impart or detract from a larger flavor profile?
- Will this oil cause any problems with any of my plastic equipment (containers, racking components) or testers?
- Are there any issues with the oil and yeast (sugar/oxygen uptake and metabolism)?
- What will time do with the oil / increasing alcohol content / solubility / flavor
I tried testing pH again but the meter wouldn't calibrate so I need to get a new probe. I'm sure it's lasted longer than expected. It does read pH in different settings so I don't think it's unable to read a pH, it just gives me a warning when I try to calibrate.
I would say either way your oil will continue to separate.
it might go rancid.
I don't know if the flavor will transfer, I feel it wouldn't be in a good way, but that is pure speculation
Yes, I have gotten staining with oil. the nut oil not as bad, but I just changed a racking hose because I was sick of the tomato stain.
for the last two I have to go back to possibly going rancid. My goal would be to get rid of it.
I was thinking you could overfill your secondary after it has been sitting and spill off or scoop the oil off the top. I really have no better idea of how to deal with it.
I just started a kit with RC-212 and it was real slow to take off. I was at about 63 degrees so I put a heat belt on it. Even still it took a couple of days to really ramp up, and I used a starter. Last night it was in the 80's and finally going like mad. pretty sure I pitched first thing on the 23rd. Cold temps, slow starting yeast, both?
I was wondering many of the same things researching for my nut wine -
Many older recipes go under airlock right from the start. There should be enough free oxygen already present to finish the yeasts reproductive phase...hopefully. So, it may not interfere with oxygenation.
Flavor from oils? Frying foods in different oils affects flavor. In wine? We'll all find out I guess.
Oil and plastic, basic PITA cleaning but shouldn't be permanent.
How fast does oil turn rancid? I don't know. BUT it needs oxygen to turn rancid - it oxidizes! I may stir often once I start.
I think warming it up was a good idea. Get that baby done!
My odds of success are increasing by following your progress and @vinny 's. Thanks!
I was wondering about this as well. Nuts in the pantry take several months before the oils turn rancid. So I don't think that a week in the primary fermenter should be a problem. Once the wine is under airlock and treated with Kmeta, there isn't much oxygen exposure. Will oils keep indefinitely under those conditions? I'm not sure. Anyway, in my limited experience with cocoa powder, most of the oil gets left behind in the primary bucket when racking into the carboy. Most of the rest is left behind at the next racking after about a month. But maybe if you are using a lot of nuts there is more oil to deal with than what I experienced with cocoa powder.
Someone who knows more chemistry than I do could tell us whether part of the oil will dissolve in the alcohol and remain in the wine, and if there is any danger of that turning rancid during aging.
So I double-checked the nut oil info I gathered in preparation of my nut wine and I gave just part of the story. (The "age" and "memory" thing.)
Nut oils turn rancid in two ways - oxidative rancidity and hydrolytic rancidity. Oil with polyunsaturated fat is more prone to oxidative rancidity. Most nuts are LOW in polyunsaturated fats, they're more stable, so maybe we don't have to worry about that kind of rancidity. @Raptor99 your nuts in the pantry is a good example.
The hydrolytic rancidity is caused by enzymes and microorganisms that produce those enzymes, mainly lipase which breaks down fats into monoglycerides. One of the most common microorganisms producing the lypase enzyme is candida. Here's the thing - our bodies have a boatload of these critters in the digestive tract and mouth and even sometimes they show up on our skin. Now I'm wondering if the rancidity of nut wine that we read about is caused by poor hygiene?!
There's so little information on nut wines that it seems we have to go about it in a round about way.
Nut oils turn rancid in two ways - oxidative rancidity and hydrolytic rancidity. Oil with polyunsaturated fat is more prone to oxidative rancidity. Most nuts are LOW in polyunsaturated fats, they're more stable, so maybe we don't have to worry about that kind of rancidity. @Raptor99 your nuts in the pantry is a good example.
The hydrolytic rancidity is caused by enzymes and microorganisms that produce those enzymes, mainly lipase which breaks down fats into monoglycerides. One of the most common microorganisms producing the lypase enzyme is candida. Here's the thing - our bodies have a boatload of these critters in the digestive tract and mouth and even sometimes they show up on our skin. Now I'm wondering if the rancidity of nut wine that we read about is caused by poor hygiene?!
There's so little information on nut wines that it seems we have to go about it in a round about way.
@BigDaveK Interesting information! I did a little more digging and found this article: Food spoilage - Rancidity and food chemistry
It discusses the two types of rancidity of oils. Scroll down to the section on "Preventing Rancidity." Oxidative rancidity can be prevented by excluding oxygen. Hydrolytic rancidity requires the presence of an enzyme, lipases, which is naturally present in many foods. They can also be produced by certain microorganisms. So there are two cases. Roasting the nuts should destroy any lipases present. That is the method used to stabilize rice bran and prevent the oils it contains from becoming rancid. Regarding the microorganisms, the question is whether or not those microorganisms can survive in wine at 12% ABV and treated with Kmeta.
My anecdotal experience with walnuts is that if we vacuum seal them in a glass jar, they will last for several years without becoming rancid. So perhaps oxidative rancidity is the main problem.
It discusses the two types of rancidity of oils. Scroll down to the section on "Preventing Rancidity." Oxidative rancidity can be prevented by excluding oxygen. Hydrolytic rancidity requires the presence of an enzyme, lipases, which is naturally present in many foods. They can also be produced by certain microorganisms. So there are two cases. Roasting the nuts should destroy any lipases present. That is the method used to stabilize rice bran and prevent the oils it contains from becoming rancid. Regarding the microorganisms, the question is whether or not those microorganisms can survive in wine at 12% ABV and treated with Kmeta.
My anecdotal experience with walnuts is that if we vacuum seal them in a glass jar, they will last for several years without becoming rancid. So perhaps oxidative rancidity is the main problem.
This is so darn fascinating!
I certainly understand roasting nuts to destroy any existing lipases. Similarly, there are quite a few ingredients we use that have anti-fungal properties and need to be "cooked" by one method or another before use because they would interfere with fermentation. But the candida as a generating source of lipases really intrigues me. We all have it and when conditions go out of balance it can cause various health issues. And @Raptor99, to answer your question about whether or not it can survive in 12% ABV...it's a yeast, and we know all about yeast and alcohol.
An obvious question that comes to mind is, do nut wines truly potentially turn rancid? The "evidence" seems more anecdotal. Maybe some other mechanism caused the wine to go bad.
Either way, with such a glaring lack of information regarding nut wines this could turn into an important thread. I hope everyone continues to update. And my contribution will be hazelnut, planned start is tomorrow.
I certainly understand roasting nuts to destroy any existing lipases. Similarly, there are quite a few ingredients we use that have anti-fungal properties and need to be "cooked" by one method or another before use because they would interfere with fermentation. But the candida as a generating source of lipases really intrigues me. We all have it and when conditions go out of balance it can cause various health issues. And @Raptor99, to answer your question about whether or not it can survive in 12% ABV...it's a yeast, and we know all about yeast and alcohol.
An obvious question that comes to mind is, do nut wines truly potentially turn rancid? The "evidence" seems more anecdotal. Maybe some other mechanism caused the wine to go bad.
Either way, with such a glaring lack of information regarding nut wines this could turn into an important thread. I hope everyone continues to update. And my contribution will be hazelnut, planned start is tomorrow.
Wow…! Lots of great stuff here. I did roast the nuts, and I’ve been stirring for two to three times a day. I figured that I would wash the equipment with hot soapy water and rinse really well, but that’s good information to know.
I had envisioned going through primary fermentation as is, and I may have to heat it up a smidge to help it out, but then rack off all the solids and oils going into secondary. I don’t think there will be any issues with oils turning rancid through primary, and probably not secondary either, considering it being under airlock and sulfite. From there though…. I don’t know how long it will last given the conditions, which is what it comes down to.
I’m hoping @Rice_Guy will chime in with his vast experience in the food industry…
I had envisioned going through primary fermentation as is, and I may have to heat it up a smidge to help it out, but then rack off all the solids and oils going into secondary. I don’t think there will be any issues with oils turning rancid through primary, and probably not secondary either, considering it being under airlock and sulfite. From there though…. I don’t know how long it will last given the conditions, which is what it comes down to.
I’m hoping @Rice_Guy will chime in with his vast experience in the food industry…
First we wait, then we invite....
Hydrolytic rancidity produces bitter flavors, it really isn’t a major issue if the food has a minimal heat treatment, and if the food is whole particulates. Grinding as making peanut butter mixes the enzymes with the oil and creates the problem.
Oxidation of straight oil creates a paint like, heated oil aroma. If you are looking at packages as breakfast cereal they will say “contains TBHQ” which is an antioxidant. ,,, Looking at the chemistry free SO2 also is an antioxidant. Tannin in reds and European ciders also are good antioxidants. ,,, Any treatments we do to prevent acetaldehyde will also delay oil oxidation. (Including glass bottles/ oxygen barriers) Oil oxidation involves free radicals, luckily water soaks up radicals creating peroxides, unfortunately peroxides are reactive with sulfur compounds which gets into creating reductive flavors. ,,,, a lot of sulfur compounds have low detection thresholds/ ppb ,,, and mask fruity aromatics.
Conclusion watch your free SO2 level.
Oxidation of straight oil creates a paint like, heated oil aroma. If you are looking at packages as breakfast cereal they will say “contains TBHQ” which is an antioxidant. ,,, Looking at the chemistry free SO2 also is an antioxidant. Tannin in reds and European ciders also are good antioxidants. ,,, Any treatments we do to prevent acetaldehyde will also delay oil oxidation. (Including glass bottles/ oxygen barriers) Oil oxidation involves free radicals, luckily water soaks up radicals creating peroxides, unfortunately peroxides are reactive with sulfur compounds which gets into creating reductive flavors. ,,,, a lot of sulfur compounds have low detection thresholds/ ppb ,,, and mask fruity aromatics.
Conclusion watch your free SO2 level.
winemanden
Senior Member
I would wait until the ferments over then do as the cookery pundits say, drag kitchen towel across the surface. Or drag ice cube across the top, supposedly the oil clings to it.?
I can't personally vouch for it, just wondering.
How come you never see any trace of oil in a Nut liqueur? I've never made one so I don't know if the spirit draws out the oil or not.
I can't personally vouch for it, just wondering.
How come you never see any trace of oil in a Nut liqueur? I've never made one so I don't know if the spirit draws out the oil or not.
Okay, I'm in.
Shelled and roasted my hazelnuts. Disappointing harvest, many shriveled, some mold, managed to get 3 cups, little over 13 ozs. Simmered raisins, added nuts, pitching yeast tomorrow AM.
Somewhat interesting - most recipes call for 2 oz of nuts and some 1 cup. Those calling for 2 oz are identical to a recipe I found from 1974 and attributed to Mrs. Maie Davis who lives (lived) at #4 Hampton Court, King's Lynn, Norfolk England.
Shelled and roasted my hazelnuts. Disappointing harvest, many shriveled, some mold, managed to get 3 cups, little over 13 ozs. Simmered raisins, added nuts, pitching yeast tomorrow AM.
Somewhat interesting - most recipes call for 2 oz of nuts and some 1 cup. Those calling for 2 oz are identical to a recipe I found from 1974 and attributed to Mrs. Maie Davis who lives (lived) at #4 Hampton Court, King's Lynn, Norfolk England.
Thank you everyone! This is what I love about this forum! So after quite some time of researching, based on everyone’s input, here are some more things I came up with. Please correct me if anything seems amiss.
Pecans have mostly unsaturated fats, which is why they are more prone to Oxidative Rancidity than Hydrolytic ones. Plus, heating them by toasting helps to destroy the enzymes necessary for a Hydrolytic reaction. Bonus. Pecans have a pretty good shelf life once shelled, which is better in the fridge, but they should easily make it through a fermentation process if fresh.
We will need to do our best to ultimately remove the oils and protect from oxygen. Pecan oil doesn’t solidify like other oils when cooled, so it will probably take soaking it up and several rackings to get as much out as possible.
Another bonus, making candied pecans from the pomace. It seems as though folks previously tried making cookies with them but since the raisins and pecans were fermented, the cookies tasted more like little fruitcakes. Unless that’s your thing of course.
There are a couple of threads here about Pecan Wine dating back a few years, this one was the most informative.
@winemanden I did look into some of the liqueurs, and it depends on how they are made: soaking nuts in a high proof alcohol for some time and distilling seem to be the most common methods.
Pecans have mostly unsaturated fats, which is why they are more prone to Oxidative Rancidity than Hydrolytic ones. Plus, heating them by toasting helps to destroy the enzymes necessary for a Hydrolytic reaction. Bonus. Pecans have a pretty good shelf life once shelled, which is better in the fridge, but they should easily make it through a fermentation process if fresh.
We will need to do our best to ultimately remove the oils and protect from oxygen. Pecan oil doesn’t solidify like other oils when cooled, so it will probably take soaking it up and several rackings to get as much out as possible.
Another bonus, making candied pecans from the pomace. It seems as though folks previously tried making cookies with them but since the raisins and pecans were fermented, the cookies tasted more like little fruitcakes. Unless that’s your thing of course.
There are a couple of threads here about Pecan Wine dating back a few years, this one was the most informative.
@winemanden I did look into some of the liqueurs, and it depends on how they are made: soaking nuts in a high proof alcohol for some time and distilling seem to be the most common methods.
My nuts, raisins, and some of the sugar have cooled overnight. I'll be making final adjustments prior to pitching yeast very soon. The flavor right now is incredible. First thing I thought of was the nut roll my mom made when I was a kid.
I'm leaning towards a cake concoction later rather than a cookie. Have time to think about it fortunately.
A few years ago I made an assortment of liqueurs, one with my hazelnuts. I don't remember any issues with oil, not even the rainbow oil slick on top. I do remember it tasted really good.
Anyway, I'm hoping we're all successful!
I'm leaning towards a cake concoction later rather than a cookie. Have time to think about it fortunately.
A few years ago I made an assortment of liqueurs, one with my hazelnuts. I don't remember any issues with oil, not even the rainbow oil slick on top. I do remember it tasted really good.
Anyway, I'm hoping we're all successful!
